Kells Archaeological & Historical Society
|
JOHNNY MAGUIRE (born 1924) Johnny is a native of Kells who, notwithstanding a spell at Moynalty, has lived in the town most of his life. Born at Climber Hall and grew up in Maudlin Street. Resides at Blackwater Heights since 1982. Married to Teresa who has passed away. Johnny is a former long-serving member of Kells Urban District Council of which he served a stint as Cathaoirleach |
Interview with JOHNNY MAGUIRE (1) Kells 15 July 2010 DC: This is Danny
Cusack on Thursday 15 July 2010 at 9 JM: Born and
reared in the town. Born in Climber Hall. Father a Kells
man. Mothers side goes back
possibly the
oldest family in the town, the Rourkes. DC: Plenty of Rourkes
still in the town. JM: Plenty of
Rourkes and plenty of Maguires. Maguire is
originally a Fermanagh name. Rourke then would be into
Breiffne and into Roscommon. DC: Any idea how long
the Maguires have been in Kells? JM: Or around
about it. My grandfather is buried in the graveyard at
the back of DC: Do you want to say
a wee bit about your schooling, your childhood memories
in the town? JM: I was born in
Climber Hall and I was around about three, when we got a
house down in Maudlin Street and I remember coming down
with my mother and at Harry Hamiltons window, there
was a bar around it this way and it was a kind of crush
against cattle on a fair day and I swinging out of that
and my mother in a panic trying to get me down because I
think she wasnt rightly in the house in Maudlin
until my brother Noel was born. So you can imagine the
panic that she was in. DC: So you spent the
rest of your childhood from the age of three in Maudlin.
And you went to school from there? JM: I went to
school at three-year-old in the convent and carried on
there until I got my first holy communion. Then you had
your breakfast in the convent, and then you went up to
the Christian Brothers. DC: Any memory of your
time in the JM: Ah, well, I
found it a happy time
playing with the lads there
and playing handball and football and trying to do this
that and the other. I remember one particular teacher, a
Brother ODriscoll and I thought that he was a
wonderful teacher and that he had a way with pupils. And
one thing he done was when you went back after lunch
you went home for a bit of lunch each day
you had to do ten subjects and depending how many
subjects you got certain high marks, say 90, you
didnt have to do exercises for the week if you were
successful. But if you dropped back, say to 50, you had
to do a whole weeks exercises. Everyone was
breaking their butt trying to achieve because it was very
disheartening to hear fellows playing in the street and
you inside struggling with books. DC: So you had an
incentive to do well. JM: Thats
right, yes. DC: You went to school
to a certain age, then what sort of employment
.? JM: I went to
school until I was a little over 14 and I was in third
year and I left then to start work with my father
training as an apprentice painter. We cycled as far as
within two miles of DC: People in those
days cycled enormous distances just to go to work
JM: Oh yeah,
yeah. DC: So two miles this
side of JM: No, it would be
this side of Kilnacrott. DC: Its still
some distance. But you were young and you were fit and
you knew no other. JM: Well, we used
to consider ourselves home when we topped the mountain at
Oldcastle. It was falling ground then until the Ball
Alley DC: Then it was
downhill all the way. So you started off working as a
trainee apprentice for your father. Then did you carry on
from that to something else? JM: You carried
on for seven years at that before you were declared a
competent painter. But then the job finished up as a
direct labour unit and I did a bit of contract work here
and there then. DC: And after that
JM: Well, I
carried on at that and then [son] John had his accident
and that finished that
well, I had bouts of
unemployment in and out if you know what I mean. DC: So you spent your
whole working life at painting or some aspect of the
building trade
JM: Yes, building
and repairs. DC: Were you always employed
or did you employ yourself? JM: Some of the
time I was self-employed. DC: Is there any
particular outstanding memory of your working life?
Perhaps people who stood out
characters... or
influential people...? JM: Now,
thats without working for me? DC: Yes, yes. It could
be anyone. JM: Oh yes, sure
there were lots of people. A lot of people dont
realise
I think it was in 1934
Erins
Own won the Senior Hurling Championship here and two
members of the team played for DC: It struck me the
last time I was in the Handball Club looking at all the
photos and letters on the wall that there is a fierce
amount of history in the Handbook Club in Kells. It
obviously played a major part in the sporting and social
life of Kells for years
would that be true? JM: It would, yes.
Someone told me that my grandfather beat some Spaniard
that was a world champion up there in Toms Alley as
they called at the time. Then you had the Salubrian [?]
Reilly. All these famous people playing handball. The
Starman Bell played handball and football
countless people
then McCabes played county
football. Eamon won an all-Ireland Junior. And then of
course we had Kevin Smyth, the famous Meath goalie. DC: Were you much
involved in the handball club and other sporting
activities yourself? JM: Well, I was
secretary of the minor footballers and of the handball
club. DC: Any other groups in the
town you were involved in? JM: I was
chairman of the Northern Aid Committee, I was chairman of
the Tidy Towns, I was chairman and vice-chairman of the
Urban Council several times and delegate to municipal
authorities. I was chairman of the North Meath Disability
Group, Chairman of the [Association for the] Blind
and several others too. DC: So you led a very
active community life here in Kells? JM: A lot of that
time I was living out at Moynalty. I was there a good few
years. After I got married we lived at Moynalty, from
1955 until I think 1979. DC: Moynalty of course has
gone from strength to strength with its various Tidy
Towns awards. JM: Well, we won
13 category awards here in Kells. We won it 13 times n a
row and I spoke briefly at the presentation below in the
Climber hall. One year we lost marks and we were told
that it was account of a lack of colour in the town
flowers etc. But we won the category award and I
think it was £12 or 13 hundred we got. So we spent it
all on colour the next year and we lost it because we had
too much! Then we lost marks for rubbish at DC: Any other things in
terms of the Kells Community activities, really
outstanding events
? JM: At the moment
Im trying to get a memorial erected to the Kells
men of the Old IRA. Im hoping to get permission to
erect that, hopefully at the Garda barracks because that
was the old RIC barracks. I was trying to get information
but there seems to have been a clampdown on information
regarding the period 191722. Because bridges were
blown, trains were stopped, various other things
happened. Someone from DC: Youre talking
about the early 1920s now
JM: Yes. DC: Would I take then
that youd be fairly nationalistic and republican
minded? JM: Yes, very
much so. I have two boys just home from Kosovo.
Theyve done several trips to the DC: I know that you worked
most of your life in the building trade. Do you have any
strong memories of the businesses and trades that are now
gone from Kells? JM: Well, at one
time there were three bakeries: Kiernans,
Loosebys and Fitzsimons. And James Fitzsimons
founded a brewery and had the first lager in DC: And it was he who
got the meat factory up and running
? JM: No, no. Ownie
Rourke and Ownie Sheevers were the people that had the
meat factory. Paddy McKenna came to town to work there. DC: A lot of these
businesses would have helped sustain the farming
community in the wider area around Kells. JM: Yes. On the
Carrick there was what they called a loading bank - an
elevated thing and a ramp - and the Lorries would back in
let the cattle and sheep off and whatever they were
killing. DC: Has that factory
been gone long? JM: Its
gone quite a while. First and foremost there was
Doyles garage and then you had Breslins. DC: Are you old enough
to remember the fairs at the fair green? JM: I remember
them and the horse fair on the 16th
October. Thered be horses from the top of Maudlin
across to the railway. Then of course you had the fat
stock show. That used to take place in the park. And you
had the hunt where it would be coming through the town.
They still have a bit of a tradition there
DC: Stephens day. JM: And of course
you used to have the races in Loyd and any horse fit to
win any race in it was fit to win the national. And then
there was the story about the rivalry between Headfort
and the Napers. Seemingly they used to have wagers on the
horses but on this particular occasion its said
that the Marquess of Headforts horse won. And the Naper
man or whoever he was there said: Ill be down
to see you tomorrow. And when he went down
Im sure they had a drink or something
he
said: Well, what do you want? and he said
Come, Ill show you and about thirty
yards from his door he drew a circle on the ground and he
said: A mason will be down to build a rim around
that; thats what I want off you. So it must
at least have been irksome for your man to come out and
look at the bit of Headfort ground. Now thats the
story. Then you had the Spire that was built there. That
was built by the first Marquess of Headfort for Baron
Taylor, his father. And when you went up into the dome
and let it back there was a table. And they used to have
picnics whenever they wanted. Well, they looked at the
races of Loyd but someone also said that they could see
the tall ships coming at Carlingford. You see the
Headforts were merchants. In fact Lord Headfort told me a
story about the house that back in the penal days they
used to shelter priests and that they were reported to
the Castle in Dublin and that a captain and a troop of
cavalry left Dublin to search and apprehend all the
Headfort family to see if anything would be found. Now
when you came from DC: And the Spire of
Loyd. And the Paupers Graveyard opened during the
Famine. JM: I thought
that I met you on a Famine walk. DD: Yes, you did, in
the early 90s. The Mullagh-Kells walk. I was one of the
organisers. JM: I remember
that time because I said a few words down at it. Joanna
Tall Tree [Oglala Sioux Indian from DC: Thanks for
reminding me of that. I was there that day. It was 1992.
Your must have been chairman of the urban council that
year. JM: I remember
showing Máire Geoghegan-Quinn the direction of her
homeland; the Geoghegans down Westmeath way. DC: Anything else about
Loyd and the Spire? JM: Well, it was
a disgrace the way it ended up. And Aidan Carry is to be
congratulated for the work he did. He got very very
little help from the urban council; in fact every
hindrance that could be put in his way was put there. In
fact, even when he set up the safety thing in the Spire,
that was condemned and only that he got down a man that
was the former chief engineer they have wanted it pulled
out of it. DC: You couldnt
have re-opened it without it. It was too much of safety
risk. JM: Yes, the rail
in it was gone. DC: And the Town Crest: JM: I had the
Town vested in a coat of Arms, I done that work with the
Chief Herald, and I remember being beyond in London,
inquiring about the Crosier, and the Curator came to see
us, and I dont know who was the Chairman at the
time, I forget
and she looked at the medallion and
she said to me explain the significance, and she could
not. I had to go up and explain the significance of it.
Do you know the significance of it! DC: Tell me. Looking for Coat of Arms: JM: We searched
for a long time
when we went up to see the chief
herald, and we a bit of a chat..look he said, that town
suffers from an embarrassment of antiquity, and he said
we will have a think on it, so we went back again, I had
mentioned the Round Tower, High Crosses, High Kings, do
ya see, and he came along then and from the angels
gospel, another contradiction in the Book of Kells, he
said what probably would be ideal, would be the eight
rounded cross, eight circle cross.. no one knows anything
about it, the significance of it, so we used that as the
centre piece, and we agreed to put blood in the centre of
them, sangria, the blood of Christ, and gold around, and
that white background for the purity of Christ, and we
had this shied effect, masonry, to represent our round
tower, high crosses
and here we have the title
granted to the town in the sixth century
the Joy of
Ireland
and that was that. DC: And thats all
registered with the official crowd in JM: Ay yea, with
the Chief Herald. Talk about JM: I have a
letter there from Frances Shand Kydd. She was a terrific
woman. She bought a place on
Interruption
.. and a bit of rambling
For the first time in 400 years the Blessed Sacrament is
on exposition.
More rambling
DC: Are there any other
places around the town that are particularly dear to you? JM: Well, you
have Colmcilles Well. And of course recently a few
wells have been done away with. The Malthouse Well has
been done away with. I believe it supplied the commandery
of DC: So there must have
been some kind of pond there... JM: There was,
yeah. The town is sitting on water. DC: You would have seen
big changes during your time. What are two or three
whether for good or bad really stand out in
your mind? JM: Well, I did
my best to get the council to buy the Lis lands. 140
acres was bought for £140,000 [by someone else].
Thats on the Navan road opposite the golf links and
they wouldnt do it. And the Marquess told me that
if they had he wouldnt have wanted that [much]. All
he wanted was enough to pay his grandfathers death
duties. Then I tried to get them to buy the Headfort
Estate. And [the Headforts] owned Virginia and Maghera
they owned 1250 acres there. Now it turns out that
its one of the twelve most important heritage sites
in the world and the most important in Europe and
theres a group in DC: Do you think the
loss of the railway was a big blow to the town? JM: It was the
height of madness. Thats all Ill say now. It
was the height of madness. And that man was lauded for
his accomplishments. And I cant understand why a
track wasnt laid along with the new road. DC: You obviously
witnessed economic ups and downs over the years. JM: Well, what I
remember growing up was that when Fianna Fáil came into
power I dont remember a shilling being taken off
the old age pension which it was during the Cumann na
nGaedhael government. When Fianna Fáil came into power
within a short while they brought in social employment
schemes. And I just speak for the town, married men were
the given the preference of doing I think it was four
days work for, shall we say, the council. And they dug
ditches and grips and all at Loyd. And then on Friday
they went down to the town steward who was Owen Gilsenan
at the time and he gave them a cert. or something of that
nature. And then on Saturday they attended the home
assistance officer. And I remember the queues being way
up round
well, Id only have been small at
the time sitting on the steps of the door
and the
queues went up right up DC: Growing up were you
conscious of extremes of poverty or wealth in Kells? Or
class distinction? Or has that improved over the years? JM: Id say
that has improved. There was something here that further
back in time they recognised these people that had money.
They were the controllers. That has changed a lot, for
the better. DC: Any else before we
finish up? JM: No, not
really. We had a happy childhood. |
Interview 1 End
Interview 2 with Johnny Maguire
Hello, this is Danny Cusack reporting from Johnny Maguires house here in Kells in Blackwater Heights on Thursday 2nd September 2010 and we are going to take on from where we left off the last day a few weeks ago .thanks Johnny for agreeing to talk to me again .
JM: Youre more than welcome
DC:
Before I move on to some new topics Johnny
I wonder if I
could just run a few things past you to get rough dates
now
when I say Im looking for a date
I dont want
year or month just the decade would do
1970s to
1950s or whatever
.when you talked about your memory
of the fairs and the horse fairs in the 16th of
October and the fat stock show
.what time did you have in
mind
JM:
They were all through my whole life right up to possibly twenty
years ago...
DC:
So from your early childhood
JM:
You used to look forward to them and there would be a little gate
across the door and we would be looking out at the cattle going
up and down the street and in fact one time some one forgot to
put up the gate and the next thing was we had a bullock in the
kitchen
.
DC:
You wouldnt forget that in a hurry
JM:
Me mother grabbed which ever of them was small
.was afraid
of her life that we were all going to be killed
DC:
And she got rid of the bullock anyway
JM:
And the people who owned him came in and got him
DC:
And the all live to tell the tale
.you still see some
of the old shop fronts around Kells or indeed any Irish country
town and you know the guards against the metal
.you know
from the old days
the horse fairs were a big thing
JM:
They were a big thing on the 16th October
I was wondering would it be possible to reintroduce
them in some shape or form
you know because it was one of
the highlights of the year.
DC:
Sure look what they have done down in Mullagh
they
have their annual fair dont they
JM:
They have the trashing in Moynalty
.they have various other
things around
..we seem to lag behind here and I dont
think there is enough of a community spirit
.this is
my opinion ..In here
.because we have everything that is
needed to make it what it once was
.no one had the joy of
DC:
To use the phrase you mentioned the last day an
embarrassment to antiquities you quoted your man
Slevin
.so its all there if only Kells could use it
.That s right
.that involves people pulling
together rather than pulling in different directions
JM:
I often
inscribable !
DC:
Oh right say no more
.we will come back to that
I just quoted your man Slevin an embarrassing antiquities you had
a discussion with him with regard to the coat of arms of Kells
JM:
I spent several times above with him
in fact it was
reported in the chronicle in his letter to the council, he
presented the council with the heraldic parchment
DC:
And when was that
roughly what decade
JM:
You would be talking coming into the 80s...79
on to
the 80s around that time you know
..
DC:
Yes will I can look up the Meath Chronicle on that just to get
the reportage
.then you mentioned some of the wells
around the place that have disappeared like the Malthouse
Well.....Hatchie Ducks
..again do you remember them from
your childhood or your adulthood
JM:
Well I remember them all my life...we used to go to the Malthouse
Well to get a bucket of water when we lived in Maudlin and then
the other one here Hatchie Ducks Well
do you know when you
leave Carrick Street opposite where the Motor Cycle
DC:
Pitcher lane
JM:
Thats where it got its name
..people carrying pitchers
of water up there
DC:
How recently did those wells disappear?
JM:
As soon as the developments started on those houses
DC:
That put an end to them
they were covered over
..
JM:
Well I dont know what they done with them
.in fact I
told a lady there... what was her name she was doing a history of
the town and the poor woman looked at me
and said
there was no such a well
..but there was such a well
.I
told her I would bring her up and show it to her at the time and
she didnt come
.I have a book there that she
done
.
DC:
Not Catherine Simms
I know who she is alright
.
JM:
One of the Simms is right
I dont know if the
Malthouse well
..was it servicing a Malthouse with the
commandery or whatever was down in the colony
..
DC:
The monks
St Johns
brewing ale you suggested the
last day
.it makes sense anyway
.St Colmcille`s well
of course is still going strong
its just being refurbished.
JM:
Then there was a well that seems to have dried up for some reason
or something happened it on the Headfort road
.we used to
call it the Ladys well
.that was supposed to be
haunted
well now I never seen anything out of ordinary there
do you know what I mean
.I think that might have been
feed from coming through the bottoms like
a big flow of
water comes from the bottoms through the factory
. or what
was the factory
.it was McKeons
DC:
ah yes. I know where you mean
JM:
Have you ever heard it
.if you stand on the forecourt there
in McKeons and walk around you will get a fierce flow of
water under you...You know
in fact thats what broke
Cooneys, dont know wither I told you that
..
DC:
You didnt no
.
JM:
Cooneys built that garage where McKeons is it was the
old factory
.
DC:
Yes the
JM:
If you look at it
.there is a carpool
At each side of
the main door
that was to assemble I think four cars and
they got broke building that garage
they couldnt coup
with the water. ..and the same applied to the Savoy
.as far
as I know there is still a pump operating what was the former
Savoy cinema
.there was a flow of water there
this
town is built on a hole
there is an aqueduct there you
see
DC:
So there is no surprise the wells were spreading out all over the
place
JM:
And if you left here I dont know if I said it to you
before
I dont think the houses should have been
built there
..first and foremost about one hundred and
twenty people put in an objection and we werent heard or
listened to
..and if you stand there just at the
little wall there outside
.there is three steps
there is a step down maybe six or eight foot into the
next field and the same again and its quite possible that the
river during the ice age or else ...do you see that this is what
do they call it
they have a name on it a something
feature
.
DC:
A glacial feature
whatever the term is
JM:
There used to be about 3 or 4 acres of water just in front of
those houses there
.every winter you see
.
DC:
And the concern would be if there was mass flooding or whatever
happened it could be doomed
.
JM:
Well you never know what is going to happen
looking at
the world today with all these strange events
there is very
very heavy rain in China and winds again
I think it was a
geomorphic feature was the name of it
DC:
Geomorphic
that makes sense alright
JM:
Planners and all seem to not want to know about these things
thats why a lot of people are now in problems
.problems with insurance and everything
.do you know
DC:
I did hear someone comment quite recently on all the building
that was done behind where McKeons, is having an effect on
the water level which has had a knock on effect on other parts of
the town
.thats precisely what you are saying as
well
.
JM:
Thats where the cover of the manuscript now called the book
of Kells was got
.the bottoms..
DC:
A very historic document altogether
thats
interesting
.you mentioned one of your regrets was the
refusal of the council to purchase Lis lands, And of course the
Headfort estate again when was that roughly
was that
in the 70s or the 80s
JM:
Well it was during my period on the council do you see 74
to 99
.it should be in the chronicle do you know what
I mean
..I even tried to get them to purchase
Butlins
DC:
Yes you mentioned that the last day
were you on Meath co
council as well
.
JM:
No.
DC:
Just on the urban district council
you wanted to get the
Meath County Council or the Kells Council to purchase
Butlins
JM:
Actually I wanted the Meath Co. Co.
DC:
To purchase Butlins
I figured as much
..because
Kells wouldnt have been able to
..you told me the last
day its all there on the tape what the consequence that was and
how
.what could have been something was lost
..should
we put it that way
.
JM:
The same with Headfort
.its amazing to think that some, I
dont know who the group are in America about three or four
years ago
..I think it was 36 million pounds to spend on 12
most important heritage sites in the world and Headfort was the
most important in
DC:
Yeah and it didnt get a
JM:
It didnt
.no
.
DC:
Which is a shame cause it has been broken up since for housing
and stuff
..
JM:
And what I was really annoyed about was as I claimed about in my
argument
.there was 400 years of written town history in
the Headfort Estate
..I think that
.the marquees told
me that they are in Trinity college
.Im not just sure
..
DC:
Some are in Trinity college and a lot more are
.Ill
tell you where they are
they are in the manuscripts room of
the national library
.cause I have looked at a few of them
and recently
they have started to do up a catalogue or an
index of just whats there
and its tremendous amount
of stuff and if someone could get there hands on them and write
them up as you say its a history
in its self
JM:
Oh yeah
.well its genuine
DC:
Of course it is yeah.
JM:
They really dotted there Is and crossed there
Ts
all these estates and that ...for the
particular period of the time
DC:
And you can see the individual names of the tenants over the
years they are all recorded and listed
JM:
I dont know did I tell you about the Marquees
I
was pretty great with the Marquees cause my sister Kathleen
reared his families children
he met me one day and said I
see where you were on for getting them to buy the Lis lands
and he said if the council had to show an interest it would
not have cost 140 thousand pounds
would have given them
what would have paid my Grandfathers debt duties and boy the boy
he said
.he knew that I was dipping into history
and like that kind of thing
.he said I would like the
priests hole to be upgraded if possible in the house
he
told me a story that
they used to hide the priests
..during the particular days
the then marquees was
reported to the castle and a troop of cavalierly and a captain
left to come and search Headfort house and apprehend them all if
anything was found
..but the Marquees had his man in the
castle and he beat them by twenty minuets to Headfort
House
.now do you know where the roundabout is on the road
now
DC:
I do yes
JM:
Well that was the way into Headfort estate
.you came across
by the Golf links and out at the gate before you went on to the
bridge
and across the bridge then that was known as the
Dublin gate and when the troop of cavalierly before they got to
there
the marquees coach was leaving the Drogheda gate
which was further up the road towards Ryans
you see up
Rosmeen direction and his ship was always standing by I think in
Drogheda and were whisked away before the others got in to
see
.its quite a bit of a tale
DC:
It is
.
JM:
You know and then the site
now we are celebrating the
fifty years in the Church this year this present Church and they
presented that site and two hundred and fifty guineas to the
clergy
.to the people of the parish when that church was
being built
.do you know
..
DC:
And they had there own individual places in the church I
believe
..
JM:
Thats right
.they had there cushions there
.well of course a lot of people didnt like that but
at the same time if they were
.they were kind people I
believe were good benefactors and that was rare among their
class
DC:
Sure sure
.and you were glad to have them and glad to do
what they did
JM:
Yeah well I mean during the famine times that whole wall was
built around the estate
I think it was a great
grandfather of mine for one worked in it
.I think it was a
penny a day or something like that and they had to be above in
the yard in Headfort at daybreak to get a meal of Inga buck, I
think they called it
DC:
Yes that is what they called it
.
JM:
And work till sunset they would probably have some to bring with
them
and then come back again and have another
meal
.. I seen that above
I spoke one time about the
wall and that you know it was needing to be done up and I think
it was Kruger
.that owned the estate at the time
he just sent up a bloody machine and pulled it back into
the field on the back road
..what Im hoping now in
the latter end of my days ya may say
. that we would get
some kind of a group together cause
.I do not agree with
this being termed the Boyne Valley
..I believe that we
should have a Blackwater historical and promotional society and I
always claim that the river Blackwater was more important than
the
DC:
It was
JM:
As well as Maghera Bog and the Park Hotel do you know
DC:
Sure he had twice as many acres in Cavan as he had in Meath at
one time
..
JM:
Yes and he had a Hugh land holding
..I think it was 15 or
20 thousand down in Kerry
..
DC:
Thats right
.phenomenal
..
JM:
But I would hope to see that happening and that everything
cause I wish to god that I could find out
..its quite
possible I believe that if Tony Robinson wanted to come in here
to go through this area he wouldnt be let
I
think there would be an obstruction I dont know for
sure
..but I have that feeling and the men here are not
prepared to come in and tear that place asunder and find out what
went on here
.I think I may have said to you
before
. that Im glad to see that things on Slieve
Na Callie are now being promoted because they were in use as a
crematoria thousands of years before Tara or before
Newgrange
DC:
Yeah
there certainly a big tourist
.
JM:
This is a Hugh potential
.hugh
DC:
Yeah enormous
.and its only really being realised in the
last few years
.they get big number of tourists up
there now and they have organised guards and so on
JM:
Thats right yeah
DC:
Your right there is enormous potential there
Just
.you mentioned last day briefly the social employment
scheme
..(interruption)
such as the road building
at the Carlanstown road
.is that memory from your childhood
or would it be the 1930s
..
JM:
It could be around on the 40s
..
DC:
And of course the allotments you talked a good bit about them the
last time
.when did the Allotments
.it seemed as
though a lot of food was growing there and fed people
JM:
You were feed during all the war years
I think it
only tapered off about the sixties or in the Seventies
DC:
Yeah that was my next question
..when did it taper
off
.
JM:
I think now
they would be able to tell you that in the town
hall
..
DC:
yes they should
.they should
and why did they
suddenly dry up
.the allotments what brought them to an end
do you think
JM:
I think people were on the verge of this
what do ya call
it
bust
.the Celtic tiger
.
DC:
The supermarket culture
JM:
They were afraid to go down to be there
.on their own
in the fields
DC:
I know
thats right
I know what you
mean
and probably with more affluent people buying in
Supermarkets and so on
and now we are gone full
circle people are growing their food again out in the allotments
which has to be a good thing
thats about it
all
by way of clarifying a few dates
Ill just mention a
couple of topics and you can say s few words if you want to and
if not it doesnt matter
Heritage centre for
Kells
..we had the town hall of course now thats
closed down
.now we dont have a heritage centre or a
tourist centre
JM:
We have one...it was the former courthouse
DC:
Thats right and of course thats closed now
..
JM:
It is yeah its a disgrace
I think that
they came
along and they started off
and they started to sell below
in it and it shouldnt have been done in my
opinion
thats not my interpretation of a tourist
centre
.I would bring the tours here and there and I would
bring them around and show them this that and the other and
I would bring them up the town and let them browse around the
town after
high lightening this that and the other
because the people in the town are paying the rates and suddenly
here you have them all gathered down here and sure what did they
want to see around the town when they could buy this that and the
other below there
it turned it into a commercial premises
DC:
And that to your mind was the downfall.
JM:
That to my mind was not what it should be
DC:
Its an actual inclination for people to call there first not
necessarily go any further
if they got everything
they wanted there
..which was a
problem
..and then we had the problem during heritage
week which is just recently finished
if people came
on Saturday or Sunday when the Council office was closed there
was no where for them to go and ask questions or queries or get
directions
so that has come up in discussion as
well
..so there is a problem there as is
said
Kells has an enormous heritage to trade on it
just needs to decide how to do it the best way
..so your time on the Council I think it was twenty
five years on the urban district council
.you said a little
bit the last day
.do you want to say a little bit more
about it of your experiences of being a Councillor you know the
good bad and indifferent
.
JM:
Well I dont know, I think the managerial act I think in a
lot of cases it didnt do any good
..I think it
harmed
..it harmed the ability of the elected members and I
know that from experience, there is many things that I tried to
get done and it was just knocked on the head or wouldnt be
done
.you see and thats I think against our conception
of the democracy
DC:
And do you think it was that you just got a bad manager or a bad
town clerk
if you had a good manager or a good town
clerk
.
JM:
We had one manager here a short while
Paddy
Donnelly
when I went to him to
that we needed a new
town hall instead of an upstairs room
he went to the bank
and was refused and he came back to me and we had a chat and then
well it worked out anyway that we got the money for the
town hall
.just like that
he was told to shift all the
council accounts away from it
DC:
Right
I see
JM:
He was a good man and went on to Kilkenny and he proved his worth
in Kilkenny.
DC:
There you go
.
JM:
If you seen the park
were you ever in it
DC:
I was yes
JM:
Did you see the park around the place and all
DC:
Its a lovely city
.
JM:
Well he done all that in there
.has viewing galleries and
all that
.I dont know what the name of it is
.is it the castle
DC:
Kilkenny castle
thats it
JM:
And then do you see they came along and the done all this and
then across the road from it you can go and get all the various
items that are manufactured there locally
handcrafts of
every shape and form
and thats what I could
envisage
.do you know what I mean.
DC:
For Kells
..yeah
..if done the right way
.do you
have any outstanding memories of your fellow councillors who were
particularly easy to work with or those who were difficult to
work with
those who had strong personalities or stood
out
you might not want to say anything!
JM:
I dont want to say anything like that
DC:
Off the record for sure
JM:
It was very hard to get them to come and train with
anything
progressive to a degree
..
DC:
You got a lot of resistance did you
from your own side as
well
JM:
Both sides and no one maybe worse than the next
..
DC:
You started off as a Fianna Fail Councillor and you became an
independent
so you went your own way
.
JM:
Yeah.
DC:
Was that over a particular issue.
JM:
It was yeah
..it was over a very particular issue
.I
was secretary of the Fianna Fail Cumann
..now I didnt
hold grudges because
..when was it in 1969 I was selected as
a Fianna Fail candidate and three councillors left the town and
went up to the Chairman of the Fianna Fail in County Meath and
said they wouldnt stand with me and I wouldnt get the
nomination
I stood anyway and I think I lost it by about 9
or 10 votes
and then there was a big inquiry into it
because
..Basically it wasnt me they wanted to get at
..it was Paddy McKenna that was the Chairman of the Cumann
here and a county council Councillor
..they came along
anyway when the election was over the Fianna Fail party was met
about an hour and a half before the inaugural meeting of
the then incoming council and discuss various things and Paddy
McKenna was in the town hall at the time it was their in
Castle Street waiting for the others and they held a private
meeting and only landed on the stroke of the meeting starting and
walked in and proposed another man for the chair and the
opposition voted Paddy McKenna into it
and thats
what was going on you see
there was one particular
.I
will not mention any names
..I dont think he had high
aspirations
.the president would be the ultimate one
.but it didnt work out
.well anyway there was a
big meeting and I was still secretary of the Cumann and then it
went on
.I think it was 79 and I was still
secretary
. and a directive came out that where and whenever
possible Padraig Pearce was to be honoured in his centenary year
of his birth
.we were after acquiring the town hall
.now thats the time I was tell you about when we got
it
DC:
Thats right...Yeah
JM:
I put down a notice in motion that we would name it
Padraig
Pearce
.that was opposed by the opposition Fine Gael and
Labour and two of our own Fianna Fail
Councillors
..abstained and it was defeated
.and as I
told them that night Padraig Pearce was not a political party
he wasnt a politician
.he was a patriot
and his mother was born over there about seven miles
.
DC:
Nobber
JM:
And she lost her granduncles
.two of them were killed in
the 78 rebellion
..
DC:
Brady was the name from Nobber
JM:
So they tried then down the year then
..it was simmering on
then for a year
and at the end of the year they tried
to force me to vote for one of those men and I said I
wouldnt and I resigned from the party
DC:
And that was the end of that
..you sailed your own
canoe after that and went your own way
..Brian Curran has
said once that he thinks everyone on Councils should be
independents and there shouldnt be party politics
do you think thats right or do you think
thats unrealistic
JM:
I wouldnt agree with that at all
because you can go
nowhere
DC:
This is it its unrealistic
the reality is you are going to
have parties
..the other the Fine Gael and the Labour
Councillors and the other independents you were able to work with
reasonable well
.you found that across the party
lines
..I mean individuals would be different ..of course
you might get on with that person and not that person but overall
you could work with them
..anything else you want to say
about your time in I suppose the political aspect of your life on
the council and the law in Fianna Fail or anything in that
regard
JM:
Ah sure from when I was able to carry a white wash brush
.I
used to go with my father and the other men around there was no
posters or much at the time but you wrote it on the
roads
..it would be great to get out and you only about five
in the darkness of the night
sure it was an adventure
to go around the town looking at them writing the slogans
you know
DC:
Not much of that done these days
JM:
NO, none of that done
DC:
Its all television and high powered stuff
you
possibly regret that
the loss of that aspect of
politics the sort of more personal touch is gone hasnt
it
.
JM:
It has and in one sense I have to admire Brian Lenehan going down
to Beal na Blath
.its time that wound was healed
..long
after time but
its time
DC:
The Civil war the politics
..
JM:
Families were torn asunder with it
do you know
we here
cant
.well you just cant know what it was like
.no
Matter how vivid a imagination you have
.you
dont know what that was like when houses were split asunder
.do you know
..
DC:
And you saw examples of that, did you
JM:
I seen street fights with the blue shirts as they called them
this that and the other
.you know what I
mean
thats when the Brown Harriers were brought in do
you know
...and then there was a threat with the guards
.mutiny and the like of that
DC:
Thats right I have read all about that
.The blue
shirts were an interesting phenomenon were they very active
around Kells...
JM:
Oh they were yeah
their was a few of them around
.do
you know
.I have seen fist fights in the street
.they
used to wear the blue shirt
the Italians
..do you
know
DC:
Mussolini
the equivalent
.there is a museum down in
Clonmel and there is a blue shirt on display
you know in a
glass case
.just to show you what it looked like
JM:
Did I show you
Im trying think Im going to get
it
permission to put up a monument
not a monument but
a tablet
.to the men and women of Kells Co
..the old
IRA
DC:
You mentioned that the last day
..you done a lot of work on
it
(Johnny shows photographs to Danny)
JM:
Im going about this since 2004
..yeah I didnt
find Willie O Dea very simple
..he wrote and told me that
wouldnt give me permission in case Id leave someone
out
..I never intended to put anyones name in it
DC:
The idea is an old IRA memorial isnt it
thats
basically
JM:
A plaque about the inside of the fireplace on the old barracks
wall
thats McHillards back to you in the photo
(Johnny shows Danny another photo)
DC:
Oh, the TD
JM:
He was Minister for defence
and one is Bernard
Carolan
Benny Carolan he was one of them that was jailed
after the raid on the post office and the other is Pat Reilly
from Moynalty
DC:
I have heard of him
JM:
Now he would be Fr Paddy Reilly and Fr. Mattie Reilly
Johnny
refers to some photographs again)
DC:
I can look this all up in the Chronicle
JM:
There is dam all in the Chronicles or any of the papers
about the whole thing
..well my father was at the taking of
the Bailieborough barracks and thats not recorded but this
was some chap down in it
.he was a Liberian his office
below and he said I am after buying a book
..hold on a
minute and he went and got me this and that showed it
there
.my father is in that somewhere I wouldnt know
him but do you see this man here
..He was former Paddy
Smith
DC:
TD
JM:
Minister for agriculture and local government
DC:
I have heard of him
they are great photographs
arent they
(Interruption)
DC:
Please God you will get your approval for it eventually
the
fruits of your labours
JM:
Well I was down with them in
DC:
So thats your time on the council
..anything else you
wanted to say about your time on the council or the politics or
that
JM:
I dont know.
DC:
You mentioned the blue shirts and the fist fights and they were
quite active around Oldcastle too I believe
JM:
It was really the 21 or 2 split showing up again
.do you
know what I mean
..
DC:
Its very interesting how conscious you were of the way that was
reflected in family , family split down the
middle
..political devise right up to the present day
JM:
It never healed till today
.that intervention of Brian
Lenihians might help to cure some of that
DC:
The right step in the right direction
Interruption
DC:
We can finish up in a few minuets if you like
.just moving
on from the politics of the council is there any other little
stories or things you would like to mention
JM:
I used to have an odd chat with Donacha O Doolin and that, and
then with the famine walk
DC:
Oh yes you were up in Loyd a few times
..
JM:
Yes, it was very interesting there
I dont know if you
remember it
Do you remember a lady called Joanna Tall
DC:
Yes.
JM:
Did I tell you or did you know that she left Mullagh and went up
to the
DC:
Yes I was at all that
.I remember all that
..where
JM:
And then as well as that too I just spoke
..said a few words
down at the spire and I thought it was
well just on account
of she being there it just brought it to mind that
one of
the Indian chiefs at the singing of the treaty of the Black Hills
of Dakota, His name was Setanta
.and then we had Setanta
.Cuchulainn
.I thought it rather strange
do you
know what I mean I just mentioned it
.the few words
..
DC:
It was good you made those connections
cause it would have
made a lot in the context
as you say with Joanna Tall being
there and the Brazilian fellows as well
.
JM:
Then you see I was just standing there with the crowd
..the
next thing was this man beside me hopped up to speak to the two
Brazilians and he was a Fr
what was his
name
from over there beyond
.near
Killallen
and wasnt he a priest down there and he said
to me
that fellow is from that river and someone is from
that river
.they have no townland as we have
its a river area
the name
.but seemingly
he knew the two of them
that was Archbishop Diaz
DC:
Thats right I remember him alright
.and the priest
got up and made that point didnt he
.
JM:
Yeah Fr Fagan I think was his name..
DC:
Fagan
JM:
Now Im not just sure but I think that was his
name
..Fr Fagan and he had taught there
DC:
its a small world isnt it
a very small
world..
JM:
I did tell you of course that a Patrick Maguire was the first man
ashore from the
DC:
You did tell me that the last day
..
JM:
Thats recorded in
DC:
Should have done
..absolutely
Patrick
Maguire
.thats a great story
I have forgotten
about Donacha O Doolin being there at Loyd, do you know
.you jogged my memory there
..you used to come along
to a good few of the famine walks actually and he did some great
radio programmes when he started
Donacha
Sunday
.so anything else
.
JM:
Ah sure lots of things but sure they are just not to mind
..
DC:
They just cant come to you like that can they
.,.Well I
think we might just finish up there Johnny and just to say thank
you again for speaking to us again today and its great to have
all these memories recorded as part of the history of
Kells
so thanks a million
JM:
Thats the reason I would be liking for going back in
time
..
DC:
Back to ancient times you mean
..
JM:
I dont know
.did I tell you I read it somewhere
.where they were occupying the coast like pockets and that
they were subjected to pirates and they moved inland where there
was a warrior named, Nemedias moved into the plain of Misareth,
and set up a stronghold if you like at Doon Collis of which is
done there from Maudlin Bridge and thats reckon about 4000
years BC
.you know and thats way ahead of Tara
DC:
Of course it is
JM:
And there has to be
.there has to be evidence in fact I
think the fort is still there inside the wall in Headfort on the
look out you know
then you come on then to St
Patrick
well I hope now during the what ya ma call
it
the Congress
I have spoken to Fr. John and Monsignor
Hanley about having a mass on the new bridge down there that
straddles the Blackwater
..I dont know whether I told
you about the Blackwater
it been called the Sele
DC:
I dont think you did
.no
JM:
The river Sele, and St Patrick came and erected a church to Mary
Magdalene and said that some petty chieftain threw some of his
servants into the river and I take it he touched it with the
crosier and from now on you will be known as a Abhrainn
Dubh
..the Blackwater
..you see when you look at it
in the olden days
have you ever been to that
.where Quinn is
what do you call it
.what
do you call that place where Sean Quinn is
..I can never
think of it
.but you know where Im talking about
DC:
Yeah I do
JM:
Well before you go to that
.did you ever see a sign
pointing to Teemore.
DC:
NO
JM:
Well in olden days a church was known as a T and then you come
along
and up there you have Mullaghea and whats
the translation
Mullagh is the hill of the Church and then
you had the walk along the river
and I did get on to the
thing and they were to put a place way under the bridge
..the national roads authority
.the wrote back pretty
quick do you believe
..seemingly there were others and
they didnt bother with them
.Ronnie McGrane was
telling me that they couldnt get anything out of them but I
got it by return
..if you look at it the parish ends at the
river and then you have St. Carnac from Mullaghea and Dulane
comes the other side of it
so I thought it would be
an appropriate place to have a mass and maybe name all the
bridges they have now put up around
I mean we have a
lot to go by
..if you take the one on the Oldcastle
Road
..well there you have Oliver Plunkett and you have
Brian O Higgins from Crossakeel
.and when you go on to
the Athboy road you have another O Higgins
.its
Ambrose
.Bernardo
DC:
I think he ended up in South America in
JM:
I read where he worked on some estate at Athboy
..and then
of course you have O Growney and when you go on then across to
the one on the Gardenrath road
.you have St. Cuthbert cause
I think that end of Cortown parish was St Cuthberts, but
then its also recorded that St Cuthbert was born on the hill of
Loyd
.you know
DC:
You could have a name for every bridge
..Yeah a name for a
lot of them
.thats a great idea have you
perused it with the council or the National roads Authority
JM:
I just spoke to that man
.whatever you call him
.you
know who is over it...
DC:
Malone from
JM:
I, thats over it
.it would be the Council end
.if it works ill get there
DC:
Yeah you will please God
JM:
I think it will be something to have
DC:
It would
and it preserving the history in the place names
in the Bridge names
..
JM:
And then we can start looking up and see what the connection is
with Kilmainham and Kilmainham in Dublin with the Knights and of
course there is the corner of that Abbey or Commandery
.that is still there and nothing being done about
it
..and I believe a lot of stones in Headfort Wall
the wall around the estate came in from that
..do you
know and its time that something was done
DC:
Oh of course it was
I know a wee bit about that from
writing the history of Kilmainhamwood
12 years ago cause
thats where my Grandfather was from
Kilmainhamwood
.Kilmainhamwood was called
Kilmainhamwood
Kilmainham in the wood to distinguish
it from Kilmainham outside Kells to prevent confusion but both
places had Monastery which were sort of out
.how should we
say outhouses of the main Monastery of the Kilmainham in
Dublin
thats how it happened
JM:
They were Commandery
DC:
Commandery, exactly
JM:
It was the spread around
but Ill tell you a good one
Moybolgue Is closely associated here do you know.
DC:
I know the old Graveyard very well.
JM:
And then you have Drumlane
do you know the Monastery
no
not
DC:
OH sorry
I know of it
JM:
Well this was the seat of the
DC:
I must go and visit the Abbey there
I havent been to
Drumlane
I know of it
yeah
JM:
If you come down some day please god Ill bring you cause me
daughter, she is married to a chap there
they have the land
and the land is surrounded on three sides by the lake they are
not living on that land
it was left to them
..but the
Abbey is just across the corner beside the lake
.so if you
come down some day
we will drop down
.
DC:
It would be good yeah.
JM:
But its time to tie up all these things
DC:
It is I know
JM:
Theres a man that wrote to me some time ago and I
didnt get back to him yet
..from Mayo about Colmcille
and I couldnt find anything Colmcille
he is on one of
the islands now...What the hell is the
..
DC:
Iona
JM:
No..no
in Mayo..
DC:
Off Mayo, Didnt know there was a Mayo connection now
JM:
I couldnt find it anyway
you know
but
there could be
.
DC:
There could be a connection
.I didnt know there was
but incidentally the well had just been refurbished and its open
again, I was down there it looks quite well
.they done
quite a good job
.
JM:
Well you see I wanted was I wanted to build a kind of a thing
there
.for the well itself so they could say mass or
rosaries and have four seats going down two on each
side
..you see you could say a decade a decade, a
decade, a decade
a seat and build it with mud and
wattle
.do you know what I mean and thatch roof it and that
DC:
It would make it realistic alright
JM:
Realistic do you know
I have something there if I could get
it
.
DC:
Its a good idea
..
(Irrelevant chat) Johnny shows Danny a photo of his mother
and his uncle Paddy
JM:
Do you see the grimace thats on him
.well
Maria has a lad that is the dead ringer
well he has a
grimace on him cause at that time gawsuns only wore
petticoats and when the lad, when that was taken, the chap
lifted him up and put him down
..do you know the little
bench out on the side of it
he put him sitting on a
bunch of nettles
.
DC:
Its no wonder he has a grimace
.what year would that be
.that, must be about 19
JM
Gosh that year would have been 1908 or 1910.
DC:
Thats a great photograph
JM:
That one there is just in Edinburgh Cathedral with Cardinal
Kilpatrick, Brian and Bishop Smith
there from Theresa
DC:
Great photograph too
.
JM:
We had a bit of a gathering of the Maguire clan there
.a
while ago
.
DC:
You did.
JM:
Yeah in Maguires
DC:
Oh in the pub
no better place.
JM:
Well, Not for me
.thats a cousin of mine
there meeting Pope John
.I have to try and raise funds for
her because
.they lost two priests
.six sisters and
eight students and their families
..as well as the school
for the deaf and as well as their primary and secondary school in
Haiti
so I told her I would raise a few bob for her
and send it please God
.No there was a family
connection home from Australia and then another from Leeds and
then another from the west
the brother and sister
hadnt met here since 1968
.
DC:
42 years
.amazing
.so you had a clan gathering
JM:
We sort of had a clan gathering
DC:
The Maguire clan
the Maguires of the pub
they
are no connection to you
JM:
No.
DC:
No I didnt think so
JM:
Well no you dont know
DC:
Well if you went back far enough
but they arent
a close connection
.those Maguires are there for
generations
their father was there
JM:
Id say they came in the 50s or 40s or something like
that
.it used to be McEnroe`s
DC:
Before it was Maguires
right
JM:
My father was telling me that Hugh McEnroe was one of the first
to have a car in the town and they had the football club
Whats Wanted
..do you see
them all
loaded onto the car anyway and I dont know where they were
going to play
going out the Oldcastle road
.you see and
they were sitting on mudguards as well as everything else and the
car was only shuddering up the hill and Pete Rogers, Lord have
Mercy on him
said pull over Hugh there is a lad on a bike
trying to get by you
..wait to hell till I get over to this
side of you
DC:
I can believe it.
JM:
And, whereabouts did you live at Kilmainhamwood
DC:
Well I never actually lived there but my grandfather grew up
there a townland called Shancor
its a mile outside the
village up Lismean hill
..do you Lismean hill
do
you know Keoghans pub
..Ill tell you now who has the
land Gogartys
.
JM:
The printers
..
DC:
His brother Bob
.he owns the land that was Hughs
JM:
They lived in a cottage above on the top of the hill
.
DC:
Thats where they grew up in
JM:
I painted them houses
..for the Meath Co. Co.
..I used
to cycle their night and morning
DC:
Its some distance
yeah
JM:
I used to know nearly everyone there
.then there was
Maguires further down the hill
DC:
There were Maguires!
JM:
Cassidys
DC:
There was a lot of Cassidys
JM:
And then there was
DC:
There was Mc Gees as well.
JM:
There was Mc Gees and there was another cottage there what
the hell was that
a nice girl living in that cottage
there
above Maguires
Tape interrupted . End