Kells Archaeological & Historical Society
BILLY THOMPSON (born c1955?) Billy grew up on the Headfort Estate
where his father was farm foreman. From the age of 15 he
spent 25 years working on the estate himself. Billy now
lives at Rosmeen not far from the old estate boundary. |
Interview with
Billy Thompson. DC: Hello, this is Danny Cusack on Thursday 24th February 2011.Im here at Rosmeen outside Kells, talking to Billy Thompson who was born on the Headfort Estate.Thanks Billy for agreeing to talk to us today.Perhaps we could kick off by starting to say what your earliest memories are of the Headfort Estate and your family and where you grew up. BT: Well I was born on the estate well not actually on the estate, I was a baby there.My dad was the foreman there. He ran the estate, the tillage end of things, cattle and all that kind of stuff.It was a nice place to live like them times. DC: The house you grew up in was it outside the estate or was it inside? BT: It was inside, in the farmyard. DC: Whats your earliest memory of the farmyard? Was it the people, animals or machinery? BT: It was a bit of everything there really.There was about six families there.You know.That was in my time.There would have been a lot more in the earlier days.They had a dairy farm in the very early days.That was sort of when I was young, you know.I just dont remember all that bit.It was before me. There was a lot of people employed at that time.My mum was actually one of the dairy maids.She worked in the dairy end of things making butter, milk and what-not and supplying it. DC: Thats when all that sort of stuff churning and all those old practices were on the go.So you would have seen all that.Do you know how your parents came to get employed on the estate? In the first place BT: Well my dad, he worked for Nicholsons estate then he came to Headfort I think he got he told me at one time about a shilling more per week by moving.Which would have been I think twenty one shillings at the time by moving.My grandfather on my mothers side was the kind a footman.He drove them around on a pony and trap.They lived down the road her there used to be a little cottage, the estate ends just at this little wall a mile away.They lived in a row of six little cottages. There was other people there as well. DC: Those cottages are long gone BT: Ah yeah they are demolished. DC: So you really had a family tradition on the estate.When would your father have come would it have been roughly the 1940s? BT: It would have been he was there the guts of 60 years DC: Its a long spell, yeah so it was quite a family tradition. And then growing up, firstly how many of a family were you. BT
Three DC:
And where did you all get your schooling or education or
how did that work? BT:
In Kells, my brother worked there for a while but not for
very long.For a few years and then he went off to follow
other things. DC:
And yourself how did your life sort of pan out? BT:
It was good like, I had no problems.When I got married we
moved into one of the estate houses.Actually my wife she
used to work in the school.So we met there. DC:
Of course the school is still going.Its still going
strong.So you met through the school and then you moved
into one of the estate houses
.and then moved out
here later on? BT:
Well recently in the last twelve years.You see the estate
was sold twice from Headfort actually.When Lord Headfort
owned it, it was sold twice. So we ended up here
then. DC:
Yeah in Rosmeen.You didnt move to far. Just going
back to more of your childhood and early days.Do you have
any memories of what you sort of done in the summertime,
or after school or pastimes, hobbies or sports or how you
filled in the time? BT:
Mostly fishing on the estate. That kind of way DC:
Understandably, I have already interviewed Fred Ireland,
I think I have said it on the phone, fishing was his big
pastime, and Willie Sheridan as well.You would have been
set up with the river Blackwater.Did you mix much with
the children of the other families? BT:
Yeah we did lots of things we would be up to. DC:
Mischief!Generally did people get on?There wasnt
ructions BT:
No. It was happy surroundings in those days. Yeah DC:
Yeah thats the impression I got from the other
people.It was a happy place to grow up in.When you
mentioned the Headforts did you mix much with them or was
there quite a gap or gull for Hierarchy? BT:
A little, but the lasts Lords son Christopher, he was
kinda one of the lads really
when he was growing
up. DC:
I have got that impression all right.Someone else said
certainly in the early days you didnt go up to the
main house without an invitation BT:
That would have been the last lords father; he
would have been stricter in ways.The Lord that I know,
Michael Taylor like, he was kind of easy going. DC:
I suppose he was on the same level of the people BT:
More of less, more or less DC:
Did you have much to do with him personally yourself?Like
any encounters with him BT:
No No. My dad would have done.He paid the wages through
the office on a Friday and that he had all the receipt
books and what not.I actually had some of them but
unfortunately they are gone. DC:
Ah thats a pity. BT:
Wages from back fifty years or more DC:
Its a pity they are gone, because they are a great
historic. BT:
I didnt actually bring them up here, we had them
where we were in Headfort
they were dumped. DC:
Thats a pity.In the national library in Dublin
Ive seen, some of them there.The result Headfort
papers going back hundreds of years and some one is
working on indexing them and cataloguing them at the
moment.When thats done they are a great resource. BT:
Yeah it will show all the wages and the different
men.What they done and what their job was and that. DC:
Which is very interesting in terms of social history?What
labourers did and how lives were.There was actually
a lot of people living on the estate in your time
wasnt there? There would have been different
families scattered around. BT:
Yeah.There would have been school teachers as well.Some
other houses outline houses like; there would have been
old school teacher sand gardeners and that living in
those. The yard itself was kinda just a maybe a block of
twelve or so houses.Then there was a few here and there
through the estate. DC:
Scattered.Im talking to a Mary Brady next week. She
was a Geraghty I think, she grew up on the estate. She
lives out the Oldcastle road. BT:
Mary Goren? Yeah we grew up together. DC:
Then there is a Mary Lynch she is now Mary Moran.She is
married to a relation of mine out in Gravelstown.She grew
up in the herds house at the north gate. .In that
direction. BT:
That would have been the herds house.The stock man. DC:
Its still there you can see it through the gate. BT:
Actually the last man that was working at the stock was
Benny Hand.He is actually in Trim at the moment
unfortunately.He is suffering from Parkinsons I
think. But his wife lives there, Im sure she would
have stories to tell you too, Rosie Hand.You could give
her a call. DC:
Is she still in the house? BT:
Yeah she is. DC:
Ah right, I didnt know that.Thats
interesting.Rosie Hand, I might follow that. BT:
He took over from it would have been Neddy Lynch.Neddy
was the man before him. DC:
Yeah that was probably Marys father actually. BT:
Yeah it would be DC:
Cause they moved out and bought the house in
Gravelstown.They wanted a bit of space. BT:
Benny would have been there up until like it would have
been sold. He would have been there forty years,
Id say working there.Near enough DC:
Thats the other thing that strikes me with people;
People there were long termers.You know if you were there
you were there for forty- fifty or sixty years. BT:
More or less yeah.It was just the way things were then. DC:
So you would have got to meet some of those other
families obviously around the estate. BT:
Ah yeah we all knew each other. DC:
And yous had your own little community around the
farmyard. BT:
More or less yeah DC:
I know there is houses. There is houses and flats built
there now. BT:
Yeah its all re-done. DC:
Yeah re-done I have been in there. BT:
Thats how he moved to here like. DC:
Right l see.Myles Dungan who is on RTE radio he is living
in there.I dont know if you know Myles Dungan he
lives in one of the flats.Im trying to think what
other question I could ask.suppose a question I ask
everybody is
Were their any outstanding characters,
like people who would stand out.Outstanding characters.
.. Memorable people. BT:
Well we used to have an estate party at Christmas for all
the workers.There were two guys, who are dead since.Peter
Friary and Michael Lawless, they used to a kind of a
singsong and that kind of stuff.They had their own way of
you just had to see it
they had their own way
of doing it. DC:
Willie Sheridan actually mentioned both of those
characters. They obviously made a big impression. BT:
They were kind of I wouldnt say comedians but in
that line like, they were Jokie kind of fellows.They
worked in the forestry end of things. Planting trees and
cutting trees. Felling trees and that kind of stuff. DC:
I used to see Peter Friary walking around Kells in his
last days.He was very stooped by that stage. And he had
a, I used to call him the Mexican, he had a big hat. BT:
He would stand out a bit alright.Ah a nice man. DC:
So those two, anyone else in particular? BT:
Eh not really
no.Everyone else was just working. DC:
Any particular sort of funny instances or even tragic
incidents
or things that stand out that happened. BT:
No not really when I was there, but there was
one
man, was killed there George Knox I think. Im not
sure something like that was his name.It would have been
before my time kind of thing.I would have been very
young.That time we used to bring in hay loose like on a
horse and cart, it caught some kind of tripod thing over
it.It fell on him.He was killed there.That was the only
person I think. DC:
I havent heard of that incident. BT:
Its back a while now. DC:
It would have been reported in the Meath Chronicle. I can
check that up. The law of averages in a big estate like
that your going to have something happen over the
years.Thats the reality. The people who lived
on the estate who worked on the estate were they sort of
Catholics and Protestants.., .was it kind of mixed or
not. BT:
More of less yeah DC:
And people got on well.There wasnt any religious
sectarian? BT:
No, no not in those days. DC:
I suppose those days were long past by the time you came
on the scene.And of course at one time the Headforts
owned all the town of Kells. BT:
More of less yeah. DC:
They had the land for the chapel. BT:
There was fifteen hundred acres on the estate itself when
they were there.That included the old golf course and on
the Navan road where the power station, where the
graveyard is
that was all their land as well.As you
say more or less half the town DC:
Well they got it when the Taylors came in the
1660s after the Cromwellian business.They owned
14,000 acres in Cavan, up around Virginia,
Muncherconnaght, the Park Hotel. BT:
The Park Hotel was there little kind of a shooting kind
of a lodge when they were out.They owned quite a
bit
well, were given quite a bit. DC:
Given quite a bit, should be say back in the 1600;s and
kept it for a long time.That era has passed Hasnt
it?They moved on.Do you ever go back there at all? BT:
Off and on.Not that often really. Its more or less
gone, well you can go in
but its sort of more
private now than it was. DC:
Ive heard that Sam Holt has tried to run one or two
people off the premises. BT:
He is actually retired but he kinda is still there.Doing
security man. DC:
He is still at the job.I have been up at the main school
a couple of times over the years when they have had open
days.During the Kells festival or talks during the Kells
festival.You can get in that way and wander around. BT:
There was another man worked there, he would have worked
with Willie Sheridan. He was John Grimes. He lives out at
the Boolies on the Mullingar road.He worked there in the
school for twenty five or seven years.He would be able to
tell you a bit too. DC:
Worked in the school as a? BT:
Sort of a maintenance man.He would have started off with
Willie Sheridan in the garden, like serving his time like
and that kind of thing.He would have been up and down to
the school doing odd jobs. DC:
Well thanks for that because Willie didnt mention
him. BT:
Willie would be forgetting a little bit now. DC:
He is not bad for his age, he is out there in the nursing
home as you know... he had to struggle a bit
he
didnt do too bad... and Fred Ireland was just fit
to talk.There is a lot in his head.We have done quite
well.I havent too many other things to ask unless
you can think of anything else you want to add that you
might have forgot. BT:
There is bits and pieces that are not really relevant.You
know just work and that. Just cattle and sheep and
that kind of stuff. DC:
So over all it was a good place to grow up, a happy place
to grow up in. BT:
Ah it wasnt too bad.No complaints.Wages was small
because the house was part of your wages kind of thing
you know.I started there I think I was about maybe
fifteen or so
like you get maybe three pounds, ten
shillings per week
That kind a thing. DC:
Thats a pretty low wage.But you got your
accommodation. BT:
But then you build up a bit like, well not like a lot
like.But in the last few years we will say your were on
maybe, oh maybe a hundred and ten,maybe a hundred and
fifteen pounds
thirty years later. DC:
So were you working there from fifteen up until you left BT:
Yeah DC:
Oh you were.What was your kind of line of work? BT:
Mostly on the farm machines.Ploughing, tilling, and
sowing
all that kind of stuff.You kind of multi
tasked.You could be doing anything and everything sort
of. DC:
So I guess you were working there for thirty or forty
years BT:
Well twenty five anyway.In that time Ive worked for
Headfort himself and then they sold the estate to Bill
Kruger and worked for him as well.Then the last sale
before the development, Ive worked for Peter
McDowall for five years.Its kind of all working in
Headfort but three different bosses. DC:
Three different bosses
.I understand now. You would
have seen some big changes down through the years.Even
just in terms of the number of people working I suppose
just dropping away. BT:
Oh yeah like there was fifty something or sixty men in
the very early days, well men and women there would be
all in the dairy and that. DC:
And all that dropped away during your time. BT:
Yeah DC:
Through technical changes, methodisation and all that
kind of thing. BT:
At that time like when the dairy was going, they supplied
Kells centre with Milk and butter, cheeses and stuff like
that.But then as times changed they went more into cattle
farming and tillage farming and that kind of stuff.The
garden actually supplied as well.It was self-sufficient
for vegetables for the whole estate.They sold off any
surplus. DC:
And then there was this thing called the American garden
wasnt there. BT:
Yeah its very over-grown now. DC:
Well thats interesting cause your time there
captured a snapshot of the estate of Headfort.Its
useful for people to know about. BT:
All Lord Headforts ancestors would have been buried there
as well.On the Mausoleum on the Island itself. There is
three or four there. DC:
Thats right I think it was Fred Ireland that
explained all that to me, about the three or four bodies
in the Mausoleum.He used to have to go in once a week to
look after it. BT:
Its still intact like. Its all still intact. DC:
I have never been to the Mausoleum.I know some people in
the historical society who have an interest in going in
to it.Is it actually Ormiston who owns it? BT:
Yeah Norman Ormiston.He would own the land I am not
sure what way the building was left, whether the cannier
thing. The burial site on the Island, There were rumours
that the last Lord, Michael Taylor was supposed to come
back but he died.He has died since, but he hasnt
come back.He was in the Philippians or somewhere. DC:
Yeah because he was connected to Imelda Marcus. BT
He must have got buried over there. DC:
Can you easily identify where the graves are on the
island? BT:
Oh yeah, the are marked, they are marked with one big
headstone with all the names on them. The lady Rose, I
dont remember that as such.She was buried there,
that was kind of a big funeral thing.She was brought down
on a gold carriage and horses, from the main house down
to the grave. I was only a child, very small but I
remember my parents talk about it.She was all done up
like she was alive, face painted, clothes
everything. DC:
They made a big show of it. BT:
Yeah. DC:
I suppose it was the last gasp of the dying era, because
all of that quickly went.Didnt it. BT:
The last owners ashes ware buried there as
well.Bill Kruger.He is buried there as well. DC:
I didnt know about that.And then as we say it was
sub divided.You had the forestry, the school and the
houses now.Well unless you can think of anything else, I
think we have done well and thank you BT:
My brother can tell you bits too because he had been
there a while too like.He grew up with the children that
I wouldnt have grown up with.You know he was in a
different year. DC:
Older than you is he? BT:
yeah he is. DC:
Whats his name? BT:
John, he lives up there at Liscarton in Navan. DC:
Oh yes. BT:
He would be more in Fred Irelands age group DC:
Would he BT:
Yeah they grew up together.They were kind of men when I
was coming along as a child DC:
Yeah you were nearly a different generation. BT:
Yeah.He started off there so he would have known a few
bits and pieces Im sure. DC:
Well every bit helps and thanks for that.It strikes me
that you could almost write a book on the Headfort Estate
alone with all this information BT:
Well you could if you had someone who could write like. DC:
Well there is enough information there, between all the
people like yourself and then these papers in Dublin. THE END |